Today, Shelby and Drew are discussing Thor: God of Thunder 15, originally released November 13th, 2013.
Shelby: I am no stranger to drinking with my coworkers. It happens less now, but back when I started with company I’ve been with for the past six years, we used to go out all the time. Drinking with coworkers is strange; you have the weird anxiety about introducing these people to your true, non-work self. If you’re lucky enough like I am to work at a pretty casual place, the difference between work-you and real-you isn’t that extreme. Casual workplace or no, afterhours outings can definitely bring the group together. Sure, things are probably going to be awkward the next day, with everyone exchanging stories, gossiping about who hooked up with whom, but the shared experience of the evening brings people together and makes the team tighter. It helps, too, when the boss picks up the tab.
The League of Realms is closing in on Malekith in Alfhelm, the Realm of the Light Elves. While sugar forests and candy cane meadows may make for pleasant hunting, Malekith continues to elude capture. Thor, too, struggles to keep his league together: the troll wants to kill every dark elf they find, refugees included; the dwarf is pissed Thor took his dynomite away; the two elves constantly bicker; and the giant still hasn’t said a word. Finally, Thor turns to the thing he knows even better than fighting: drinking. He takes every one out for a night, hoping that maybe in the morning they’ll remember some of the camaraderie they found at the bar. Unfortunately, Malekith, disguised as a bar maid, overhears some of their talk and figures out where to go next: Jotenheim, Realm of the Giants. The dark elf refugees there find themselves caught between two rocks and a hard place as Malekith and the League go to battle, with various giants calling dibs on winners (and losers). Malekith jumps into Oggy’s mouth and cuts his way out of the giant’s eyesocket. Sadly, before the League can mourn/avenge their fallen comrade, Malekith summons his new allies:
Thor is struggling a lot with his leadership role, and it’s really no surprise; I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more disparate group. Six different races of creatures who would fight over who hates who the most doesn’t make for the most efficient team. Jason Aaron does some interesting work with Thor trying to muddle his way through how to lead these people. That’s what I really like about Aaron’s Thor; he’s confident, but he knows his flaws. I love the scene after he beats Oggy in a drinking contest. That’s right, Thor out-drank a giant. Anyway, Waziria finds him musing over the lessons he’s learned from those closest to him: fear from his father, love from his mother, lies and trickery from his brother, and power and fighting from Mjolnir itself. He knows that none of those things together will be enough to lead the League, and while getting the team to drink together was a good first step, he’s going to have to challenge himself to lead by fear, love, trickery, and power in order to truly lead the League to victory. I like seeing Thor have to work out what to do, work past the flaws he himself knows he has, but I’m distinctly more uncomfortable with the Lady Waziria’s place on the team.
It was inevitable that she end up hooking up with someone on the team, and that someone was probably going to be Thor. But why was that so inevitable? Maybe a better question is why does that have to be so inevitable? Aaron does a fine job showing her as an equal member of the team, sharing in the same begrudging respect and mutual hatred everyone feels for each other, and yet here we have the obvious hook-up. So why does sex have to be the way Waziria fits in better with the team? Can’t it be enough that she’s a sweet fighter, wants to save her people, and has sassy one-liners at the bar? Was it really necessary to have the rest of the group betting on who was going to “bed her” first? Working in IT and loving comic books and other nerdy, traditionally male things, means I am frequently the only lady in a group of gentlemen, and this whole exchange really put me off the issue. Aaron has a great way of writing fantastic nonsense in a way that makes it seem ordinary and every day for the characters involved, and I love his sense of humor, but this feels like a wasted opportunity to me. Aaron had an opportunity to make this woman (the only woman in the book) use her skill and personality to fit in with a group of men. I think she could have done so AND still hooked up with Thor; it’s just the context of “this was my plan to get you to fit in,” that really makes me uncomfortable. What do you think Drew? Am I just projecting my only-girl-in-the-roomness on this scene, or is it as unnecessary as I think? I didn’t even touch on the loss of Oggy, what did you think of his surprisingly poetic first/last words?
Drew: Oggy’s single line — “I wasn’t done…listening yet” — was probably the most eloquent of all “silent character speaks to signify the importance of a moment” lines I’ve seen, but that didn’t stop it from feeling just like every other time that trope pops up. The biggest problem with those moments is that the buildup usually comes at the cost of actually establishing anything about the character — all we know is that they don’t speak. Usually, that moment changes our perspective on their character moving forward, but because Oggy dies immediately after giving that line, all we’ll ever know about him is that he was a silent giant who was apparently a very good listener.
To your larger point about Waziria just being on the team to serve as a love interest, I’m inclined to agree in theory, but I actually think that’s exactly what Aaron was going for. Indeed, it’s quite clear that Aaron intends to lampoon the fantasy tropes he’s so openly embracing. Let’s not forget that those lines about bedding Waziria are spoken at the Gingerbread Tavern, deep within the Sugar Woods.
Like, this isn’t even Tolkien anymore — it’s straight up Candy Land. Corny love interests are part and parcel of that kind of high-flying fantasy, so I accept that Aaron wanted to throw one in for verisimilitude. In that light, it’s actually a triumph that she is a warrior woman. Thor could have saved some corseted damsel from Malekith’s warpath, but instead he found a hard-hitting warrior who can hold her own against the other strong personalities on the team.
It’s to Waziria’s credit that she’s also the only Dark Elf on the League. She ultimately has the most at stake here, and is also the easiest target of the rest of the team’s bickering, which she handles as well as any of the men. Sure, that bickering takes an ugly turn when they start betting on whose going to sleep with her, but these guys are basically from the dark ages — they’re not going to have the most enlightened views about women. I mean, we’re all willing to excuse their rampant racism against trolls as a simple truth of their setting, it only seems fair that we overlook some casual sexism, too, right?
I’m mostly impressed at how close Aaron gets to absurdly silly without going over the line. The gumdrops and candy canes of Alfheim are beyond cartoony, but that only serves to emphasize how dark the Malekith story really is. Like, as adorable as the fairies and imps are, they choke out a dark elf with grapes, and in the next page, Waziria caves in another dark elf’s face with a satisfying SPLUNNCH. It’s basically the same way Aaron treats the love interest storyline — a study in contrasts of the badassness that surrounds it.
In short, this issue is that occasional night out with co-workers — enlightening in some ways, refreshing in others, but always with a knowing amount of discomfort. Like the best drunk friends, Aaron moves to embrace that discomfort. It can be unsettling if you’re not sure if it’s serious, but is entertaining as hell if you allow yourself to sit back and enjoy the show.
For a complete list of what we’re reading, head on over to our Pull List page. Whenever possible, buy your comics from your local mom and pop comic bookstore. If you want to rock digital copies, head on over to Comixology and download issues there. There’s no need to pirate, right?
Retcon Punch 
That’s interesting Drew. I don’t totally think it excuses pointlessly sexualizing Waziria, though. Especially in the context which Thor provides — he know that this is the only way to make her bond with him. (Like, if that was the only way Senior Pistole was going to bond with him, mighty Thor wasn’t going to bed him.) I know you’re saying that this whole thing trades in tropes, but the trope of women not having any fun on a night out with the boys — until she gets the ass she’s SO OBVIOUSLY ASKING FOR — is just straight icky.
Icky, and kind of surprising: it’s very out-of-character for the book. It would have fallen in line with Aaron’s fantasy distortion of tropes if they two had just hooked up; that feeds perfectly into the night out with coworkers idea.
Yeah, it’s icky, but my point is 1) that it’s borrowed ickiness, and 2) that it’s ultimately much less icky than the tropes it’s riffing on. In terms of love interests for Thor, this is about a strong a character as we could have asked for. Yes, the fact that the only female character becomes a love interest is unfortunate, but it’s also very true of the genre Aaron is sending up. Don’t get me wrong: some of those genre tropes need to change, but I’m not sure it’s fair to take a parody to task for the tropes it’s lovingly mocking. All Aaron is doing here is holding up a mirror.
In my mind, Waziria is closer to Princess Leia than she is to Lady Arwen, and I think that’s as much as we can expect of a story that is consciously working within the confines of the genre. I’m happy to have a conversation about how Leia shouldn’t be seen as the feminist extreme (none of the Star Wars films come even close to passing the Bechdel test), but it’s clearly bigger than (and possibly largely unrelated to) any problems with this issue.
I don’t think this is obvious enough a parody for that excuse to fly. The fact that he’s borrowing from existing instances of sexism doesn’t change the fact that this is sexist.
I think Waziria is a great love interest for Thor, and I think Aaron has done a great job depicting her as a warrior. If the two of them just hooked up because they were drunk (or super drunk, in Thor’s case), I don’t think there would have been any issue with that. That’s why it is so off-putting to give Thor this creepy plan to bed her in order to get her to fit in with the group. If nothing else, it made me extremely uncomfortable because I’m always the only woman in the group. I’m the only woman here, I’m the only woman in my department at work, and every time my coworkers go out, unless one of the developers brings his wife I am the only woman. Thor went from being a man trying to be a leader to a creepy predator in one bubble of dialogue.
Oh, this is all about the “for you, I had other ways in mind” line? I just saw that as corny dialogue.
Seriously, though, how are gingerbread taverns or fairies hanging out under giant mushrooms not obvious enough parodies? Fern Gully had a lighter touch.
I seriously didn’t take ANY of this as parody. I just thought it sucked. This whole arc has been a noticeable decline in story, drama, and art, so I’m maybe reading the whole thing wrong.
Perhaps I just have played enough D&D to not feel any bit weird about serious adventure in a land of candy canes and fairies.
The girl thing was creepy enough (and I was totally caught by surprise by it, actually. I was stunned), but I just don’t find ANY of the other characters interesting. They seem one note caricatures.
Of course, maybe it’s because it’s a parody and I’m missing the whole point. Whatever it is, I don’t like it and I now am of the mindset that I won’t buy the conclusion of it and I’ll wait for the next story line and hope it is more Godkiller and less Jotunheim’s Eleven.
For me, the problem is that the genre being parodied throughout the rest of the issue is not that kind of “realistic” high fantasy (the Tolkien/D&D) stuff, but the Candyland / Strawberry Shortcake style of fantasy. It’s clear that Aaron is having fun with the goofy sugariness of the one kind of fantasy, but I’m not totally convinced I see him having fun with the other – at least not in this specific issue.
I do think Aaron is interesting in jamming different kinds of fantasy storytelling together and seeing what happens – what was the God Butcher arc if not a biblical story mixed with science fiction? Maybe my reaction to Waziria in this issue is just due to the fact that I haven’t read the whole story yet – how she carries herself from this point forward could say a lot about the character and both of these genres.
Still, in the moment, I find it icky.
But, like, he’s also embracing the “these characters are generally prejudiced against other races” trope that shows up in Tolkien. We’re willing to excuse the racism because the races are fictional, but that doesn’t make it not racism. I get that treating the only female character as a sex object is demeaning to real women, but these seem like the same thing to me — both fit the setting.
I think a better approach would be to not excuse the racism instead of letting both get a pass because it’s fantasy. They SHOULDN’T get a pass, for any reason, especially considering that both comic books and fantasy are forms of media with massive problems representing women and people of color.
You’re right, I never even considered the way the rest of the team treated each other to be racist. To split hairs, it would probably be “speciest” since the only two that are the same creature are the two elves, but that’s not really the point. Maybe I didn’t have a problem with it because I assumed the arc would work it’s way towards a “let’s get over our differences and work together” conclusion. Maybe that will ultimately be the case, that the lesson is to not be racist, and that’s fine. If there’s an additional lesson thrown in that women don’t HAVE to have sex with someone to fit in with a group of men, I’ll be fine with that as well.
I agree with the idea of not giving either one a pass – racism and sexism are both awful.
I was actually thinking along similar lines when reading Rocketeer & Spirit. Shelby, you made the comment that Betty’s brand of pin-up showed her as “sexy-not-sleazy,” which, to be honest, I don’t really understand. Maybe I’m missing something, but every time that series hits that note of “Betty is really hott and poses for magazines that are bought by dudes to drool over” it just loses my respect.
And hell, when the women in that series aren’t being SEX objects, they’re just being OBJECTS: Drew talked about how the brainwashing television-ray could be an analogy for how tv rots your brain, but the fact that Betty is the one who gets zapped with it and turned into a brainless doll just further cement’s the series treatment of women as airheads. They could have shot the Rocketeer with it and made him try to kill the Spirit, for example, and it would have been perfectly entertaining; instead, the girl gets brainwashed (and walks around in an even MORE revealing dress than before).
Speaking of multiple lame themes in the same title, Rocketeer & Spirit ALSO tosses in some gleeful police brutality: “You know, when you get him tenderized, that pilot’ll talk your ear off!” “Yep. A little elbow grease is the soul of police work, all right.” What the fuck? Just because the story is set in a different time or place, the “classy pornstar” oxymoron and the “enhanced interrogation” thing both make my skin crawl.
We’re all in agreement about prejudice being awful. For me, this conversation boils down to whether awful things should be depicted in art (and whether that depiction constitutes an endorsement). I absolutely appreciate that art that depicts the world as we want it (that is, sans racism, sexism, poverty, etc.) can be very valuable, but I personally put a premium on art that depicts the world as it exists. That gets distorted a bit in genre fiction, but as long as there is racism and sexism in the world, I want to see it in art. For me, anything else would be tantamount to sweeping these problems under the rug.
In this case, I don’t think the inclusion of these character’s casual sexism makes this issue sexist any more than their casual racism makes this issue racist. It’s clear to me that we’re meant to read the lines about “bedding” Waziria and be disgusted by them, but also kind of recognize them. For me, this represented a truth about the way some men talk about women, and I value that Aaron isn’t pretending that that doesn’t exist.